Welcome to Atheist And Believer

Welcome! Here is the place for all True Believers and all true Atheists (and the entire range of Sant Mat Mystics, Catholic Priests, Socialists and Anti-Theists to share their views, debate, and learn some new things).

• If you are here to proselytize for Christ, WELCOME!
• If you are here to share the love and companionship you have found in Satanic Worship, please proceed!
• If you are here to prove with mathematical precision that God simply doesn't exist,  share your equations!
• Everyone is welcome. Mystic, Mathematician and Mysanthrope: Sinner, Saint and Scientist....

We want to encourage actual communication among completely divergent views for  a simple reason:

To learn from each other. 

So, if you really love Jesus and hate Atheists, here is the place to provide your views. And to get into debate!

If you think the Sangat, the Church or the Mosque is having a corrupting influence on children, here's the place to share your views.

There are some additional basic ground rules that will allow the nations of the world and all their people to voice their ideas and views here:

1. Own your own perspective. It should stand upon its own legs. Be ready to answer detailed questions.
2. If you saw Jesus in the clouds, be ready to answer sincere questions with sincere detail about what he looked like,  when, what he said, what you drank, injected or smoked before you saw him....
3. If you think someone else is wrong, avoid telling them they are wrong. No personal character remarks, please.
4. Beliefs are cases, arguments. Those can be built and dismantled, defended and assaulted. But not the people who hold    them. People are sacred. Arguments are disposable. 
5. So, this is about viewpoints, not personalities. You can hold any viewpoint, controversial, even absurd. 
6. But do not characterize anyone negatively who shares their view, except with respect that they are taking their precious   time to read your notions. Just discuss the viewpoint. The viewpoint doesn't mean anything about the person.
7. If you dismantle someone else's argument, be prepared to replace it with what you believe is better, and be willing to    give detailed answers as to why.
8. Keep it brief: 400 words max per comment, and no more than 3-5 comments per person per day. These are not moderated.    Posts may be deleted without warning or notification which exceed these simple rules. So keep copies of the stuff you think is gold. Or golden? If your 5,000 word 'No Escape: 10 Fine Women, three gallons of Vodka and No Bathroom...a Russian Night with the Donald..."  disappears, try to pare it down to something small, like Donald's hands.
9. Finally, if you want to write one of the main blog posts, and get 1,000 beautiful words of space to share with the world your grand thesis, just ask.
10. Unlike some blogs, we do not retain copyright on anything, except the right to allow anyone to copy anything for any reason. So feel free to test drive parts of your great philosophical tome right here. You can still publish it with all rights, but keep in mind, anyone can copy the version you posted here and paste it anywhere they like for free.

Comments

[Brian Hines]

Hey, I'm an atheist who likes the style of this new blog. Nice sense of humor in your ground rules. Anybody who squeezes in a joke about Trump in any context gets a big thumbs up from me.

May this blog enjoy great success and a gignormous (more or less) amount of visitors. I admire your courage in welcoming those who want to proselytize for Christ. Hopefully you won't come to regret those words.

But you had a pleasing counterpoint when you said that "If you saw Jesus in the clouds, be ready to answer sincere questions with sincere detail about what he looked like, when, what he said, what you drank, injected or smoked before you saw him." Nice!

Since I've got a Typepad name of Blogger Brian, I might as well take this opportunity to plug my own blog -- which bears some similarity to this one, aside from the invitation to religious believers to proselytize.

My hope is that hard core religious fundamentalists head to this blog, rather than mine, something I'm going to encourage by publicizing AthiestNBeliever on my blog. Which is (plug alert) Church of the Churchless:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/

[Spence Tepper]

Thank you Brian.
I would hope that those who feel lonely because everyone raises their eyebrows and flees for the hills whenever they share their thoughts, will find AtheistNbeliever their new home. If you are taking any psychtropic medication, or friends and family think you should, welcome!
Crazy views are what we after, especially ones with some interesting thought behind them. Do not worry, we will not call the police.

[Jen]

Hi Brian and Spence,

Thank you for creating this new blog for both atheists and believers.

May the mystery and ever present mystical wonder of existence bless you!

Cheers
Jen

[s*]

Very nice thank you.
And see you :0)

[.OshoRobbins]

@Spence

from your rules above:

But do not characterize anyone negatively who shares their view. Just discuss the viewpoint. The viewpoint doesn't mean anything about the person.

If you dismantle someone else's argument, be prepared to replace it with what you believe is better, and be willing to give detailed answers as to why.
Keep it brief: 400 words max per comment, and no more than 3-5 comments per person per day. These are moderated.

Nice idea, however a lot of people, especially "believers" take it personally when you question their unfounded beliefs.

Also - I have dismantled believers arguments many times at Church of the Churchless - but instead of an intelligent counter argument, all believers say, in general, is "I know this is the truth - I have inner experience and faith" which means nothing. An point of view should stand on it's own feet, with logic.

Most of what believers believe does not.

I sometimes listen to the videos on youtube on "the athiest experience" and they invite anyone to call in and if a caller believes in god - they ask one simple question:
"Which God do you believe in and what evidence do you have to support your belief"
They have yet to find anyone who has any real evidence.
When people cite personal experience, they fail to realise that it's not proof. A muslim, a christian, a Hindu, a sant mat believer can all claim their personal experience, but they can't all be the truth since they give out conflicting teachings.

So which is the truth? obviously citing lots of personal experiences doesn't give any answers as everyone has personal experiences, and as humans we often read a lot more into them than they actually mean.

[OshoRobbins]

A lot of people, when they argue, commit a number of logical fallacies.
A logical fallacy is a fallacious argument, due to certain reasons.

this website explains some of the logical fallacies

https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/

mostly, people are not aware they are using a fallacious argument.

certain beliefs for example are impossible logically:

e.g.
my god is ALL KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL (can do anything) and all LOVE!

this is impossible for various reasons

(1) can your god do the impossible: create a round square or a square circle? No? then he is not all powerful, as that is one thing he cannot create.

2) If he is all love, why does he allow children to starve?
of course you can cite the karma theory. only issue with this: who created the whole karma thing? and why? was it done out of love? How can karma be valid when you cannot even remember doing those karmas? so how will that help you?
Also many christians state God is all love, but also believe in an eternal hell. How can a god of love create an eternal hell.

3) if god knows everything, then he must also know what he was doing when he created humans and the earth, so he is responsible for all this today

[OshoRobbins]

That's two comments
and with this one, that makes three

so I better stop before they all get deleted.

[s*]

Osho,
That''he is all love''is difficult..to me too
You say something Osho, where I am in agreement with..
But can not accept it in my feelings..

I feel love..just like that as there is also sadness joy and other things one feels.

But maybe it is just there and indeed better to talk about compassion for oneselves and others.
Yes thank you that is a good insight right now!!

[777]

This has little sense

I go only where the amazing insane declarations are
and then say they are worse then stupid

Like :
Never ( zero ) harvesting gives plenty of food. !

777

Bon Chance Spence. <3

Posted by: 777 | December 12, 2018 at 07:14 AM

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho!
Thanks for the link to logical arguments. Wonderful. I think that will be my next post.
It's OK for someone to say 'I believe it just cause I do.'
And for others to say "hm, faith, not proof."
Osho you would make a great attorney for fact. When objective fact becomes the underdog, she will need good lawyers to make her case.
Glad you are here.

[Spence Tepper]

777 thanks. Welcome to the place for amazing insane declarations. What is yours today?

Osho, it may well be that fact does become the underdog here.

It'll be fun to see how it goes.

[Spence Tepper]

Thank you Jen!
Yes, the mystery. The awe and wonder. We can all share in that experience. Wonderful blessing! Thank you.

[777]

@Spence

C O N S I S T E N C Y

According to the sant mat teachings the Radiant Form of the master is the TRUE FORM, while the outer master is a human being like us. However the outer master and the Radiant form are of the same person - the master.

It is inconsistent to separate them, into the GOOD and the BAD one.

it makes a complete mockery of the whole teachings to say
"The inner master is the true and honest one - whereas the outer physical guru may lie, cheat, commit fraud and may be dishonest, but don't worry, you just hold on to the inner guru and forget all about the outer physical guru"

In fact the teaching say the opposite. The disciple who genuinely has the Radiant form and communicates with it daily, also has great love for the physical master.

I can even cite an incident about this. It was Sawan Singh - who was sad one day about his guru Baba Jaimal SIngh. A disciple asked - "But you have his inner form inside you?"

Sawan replied, "What I would give for just a glimpse of the physical again!"

meaning he has supreme love for the outer

not

"Yes the inner guru is great, but the outer is a complete asshole, that needs to go to jail"

I have never heard that version - except from you.

which begs the question - is you "inner master" real or imaginary?

Posted by: Osho Robbins | December 14, 2018 at 01:18 AM

@Spence

You are the only person to make such a statement

separating the two masters - the inner and the outer and asserting one is all pure and the other a hardened criminal

Do you stil consider yourself a follower of the sant mat teachings?

or have you now dropped those teachings as false?

Just want you to make your position clear

Posted by: Osho Robbins | December 14, 2018 at 01:21 AM

""If you met Gurinder physically, what would you feel? Love or hate?
And if you met him inside, would it be different?""

Inside it feels that HE was always there
before your first breath

The reason is that They are you
in the same sense that the Creator is You
but this is extremely comfortable

777

Posted by: 777 | December 14, 2018 at 07:10 AM

« Back
Comfortable

If you want the inside "know"
Do U appreciate the Côte d'Azur Blue?

This night my wife saw HIM ( Charan )
approaching in a kind of whiter than white config
and in a blue Méditerénean Sea were many
Swans , also with wither than white
all with fantastic auras

The blue ( She said ) was what you see on the postcards here
but more radiant as if nothing existed then that
and in billions of shadows
like Azur, Corn, Cobalt, Lapis Lazuli, Hyacint, Gentian, Nîmes
Heaven's blue, Royal Blue, Jean's , so many
all that
and HE said nothing this time. . . . .

Difficult to find a name
Amrit or honey is not so bad after all

777

[777]

@Brian

YOU SHOULD GIVE BETTER LINK BUTTOM
TO THIS PART OF YOUR BLOGGING

777

[777]

and place less depressive imagery

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 777
Pierce the inner blue sky.. Meet the swans upon a pink sea where sunset sky is eternal. They aren't really swans. They are people but look like swans in large globes of light.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 777
As for the good and the bad Gurinder, try to see the facts of the case without reference to personalities. Leave Gurinder out of it for the time being, if that helps you spend more time with the varies articles and evidence of corporate robbery, to see that as it is.

[Brian Hines]

777, I have nothing to do with this blog. It is Spence Tepper's blog.

[query]

Brian says: "I have nothing to do with this blog. It is Spence Tepper's blog."

Spence, its been a long time since you have posted something here on your blog.

[Spence Tepper]

Yes. Well I had two ideas for this blog...
First, that this would be a place to express any belief....
And second, that we would not attack any individuals.

Then, you see, Jen started sharing her views of Zen. And then, well...

Whenever I read what Zen Master Jen chooses to write, I don't feel like speaking. It's a moment of perfect balance.

Now, over at Church of the Churchless we're debating, and people are criticizing, and actually that's where I seem to be, by habit. I'm always having to build a case to do the right thing among those who would rather not, in my work. So battle is my Karma.

Though this place to me is beyond that.

Church of the Churchless is like the battleground among the creatures of the Astral planes.

But Atheist and Believer is a garden in Brahm, where people who already know they are all One, all part of the same family, are fulfilled simply sitting at Zen Master Jen's feet, listening to her simple words of truth.

Nothing can be added. It is conpleted.
And because such simplicity is pure, there is no more desire for anything but that moment of joy, when I read what she has chosen to place here today.

[Jen]

Thanks Spence, for your beautiful words.

So happy that someone else is enjoying these quotes I find which make my day :)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
Thank you so much for making this place a haven that about 50-70 people, including myself, turn to daily.

[Jen]

Going with the Flow quotes - Taoist and Zen Approach

• there isn't a single flow around us, but many different currents and possibilities to follow

• you have many choices on which flow to work with in life

• our choices are those that fully expand a life, as our own story

• adapt, change and evolve and let your heart be true to your creative nature

• unfolding from inner wellsprings of the soul; always remember the heart is the centre of a Taoist Zen Garden

[Michael Richards]

Dear Spence
I have just discovered your blog, even though Brian posted the link way back in December. I have been an avid reader of Church of the Churchless and am wondering how I missed the link 🤔Anyways, I’m here now. I am a disaffected Satsangi, initiated by Maharaji via Mrs Wood in London UK. After many years of sporadic attendance followed by a few years absence, I am going to London Satsang this Sunday, tomorrow. Hopefully I’ll find something to reignite me and maybes have something of interest for your blog. Regards Michael

[Michael]

Well..The London Satsang did not stir me at all. It was pretty much the same old same old. I may go again this Sunday though, to check if the Baba is over at Haynes the following weekend. If I do see him there, that will be the acid test of whether I Satsangi or Atheist 😮

Life is full of surprises 🤩